Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Ogden says himself he will at a later time. It probably wasn't done so that he as a hero wouldn't change, and thus would not pose possible spoilers for those who have not gotten that far when they party with someone who brings Ogden and has.

As for why do it later, perhaps because it is supposed to be the work of their god. Devout people do illogical things all the time. And as yourself said "it's entirely possible that the entire dwarven race devotes itself to the destruction o the destroyers" - if they all wanted to kill the destroyers, why wouldn't they under go the rite eventually?

He does? Weird.

But I still think Anet has given themselves just enough rope with which to have the dwarves survive as a race if they so chose (ie, they can bring them back any time they want to).

So, I guess then we'll have to assume that the dwarves are a dying race until proven otherwise.

Unless...

Wait, how do we know the dwarves have become sterile from their transformations? Everything else is working, so why wouldn't their..."naughty bits" still work with other dwarves who had undergone the ritual?

Yeah, I know, the dwarven race is finished, yadda yadda. But what if that is only referring to their civilization? How do we know that the dwarves haven't simply become more like the norn, only spread out across the subterrainian parts of the world and rarely meeting to reproduce? It seems strange to me that the Great Dwarf would order his people "Ok, I want the destroyers dead, and you're going to throw away all hope of ever being able to stop them again in the future should you miss some this time by all turning to stone, even though I could just have MOST of you turn to stone and get the same effect, without the risk of leaving you unable to stop them again when you all die and they potentially rise again".

draxynnic · Aug 13, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

For the Urns, I don't think the spirit is trapped in the urns, but instead that the ritualists use relics to more easily call upon the spirit. Think of the newest wintersday quest in EN, where we call upon Gwen's mother, Sarah: our connection item was a loose connection (an object belonging to, not a relic of the person) so it was less direct to call the spirit *and the area was a weak barrier between Tyria and the Underworld, which didn't help*. For the Spear of Archemorus and the Urn of Saint Viktor, those are confusing cases as it seems like a bit of a Soul Reaping thing going on... (or Aggression magic)

This may be worth looking into - I have a vague memory of it actually being stated that the Kurzicks and Luxons believe the artifacts to contain the spirits of their heroes. Doesn't mean they're right, of course, but they would be examples of soul-carrying objects that aren't mobile... but, yet, are possibly more powerful than any of the constructs magically. Maybe there's two 'modes' of posession - one in which the spirit can cause the object to move, and one in which the spirit saves its energies for something else?

(Either way, they both do seem to be powered by the aggression bloodstone, but that fits the theory of that being the magic type associated with the dead...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It is removed from the pattern of the world, did Glayvin incidentally find a way to severe a being's ability to use magic? Is this an indication that magic is inherently related to the soul of a being? Interesting, interesting, indeed.

That is interesting... and it explains why Lazarus nicked off rather than seeking revenge there and then.

Although I must admit to feeling that the majority of characters doing that quest possibly should have just jumped Lazarus then and there in his weakened state (it's not like we haven't taken out other Mursaat bosses). I've thought that he was probably made "friendly" because ANet decided it wasn't fair for players without Prophecies to face Spectral Agony, but the weakening would have given an excellent excuse for Lazarus to lose that ability. I wonder if it'll turn out that there are lore reasons for that (besides "ANet wanted him to get away for lore purposes" - they could have let him get taken out, had another new Mursaat in the BMP instead of Mercia the Smug, and then have it revealed later that that Mursaat used the same trick without any complications).

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Originally Posted by reaperwithnoname

Wait, how do we know the dwarves have become sterile from their transformations? Everything else is working, so why wouldn't their..."naughty bits" still work with other dwarves who had undergone the ritual?

The dwarves are no longer biological, and the "naughty bits" are a biological function. The womb, now being made of stone, may no longer be able to expand to allow a child to grow even if conception can occur. Heck, given that their clothes turned to stone with them, we don't even know if their stone clothes can even be removed or whether they've become part of the dwarf that was wearing them...

In the end, though, we don't know for sure that they're sterile, but given that in GW2 they're presented as a race that has undergone serious attrition and taken to being hermits, it seems reasonable that the likely reason is that they've become sterile and... not really immortal, since that technically means they can't die at all, but no longer subject to dying because of age.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 13, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Still not sure precisely how viable the festivities are. Certain bits, yes, but nonetheless. Although, I could easily say Grenth and Dwayna don't actually duke it out, but instead, just their minions do.

But it is still showing their existence - to an extent. Where is the proof the Great Dwarf is still around? Stories. No avatar. No "minions." Only followers are the dwarves.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

There's nothing to suggest that the Great Dwarf isn't a real God. Nothing but your own ideas and his lack of interaction, which is explained by Alkar's quote, that he is in slumber. Why? Who knows. Same can be said for the human Gods' Exodus.

Er, I never said he wasn't a god... I said he was no longer around... I.e., I say he either was part of an older generation (I believe this to be the case), was a seventh god, or he wasn't a god at all. I find the last one unlikely.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I wasn't arguing for whether or not the hammer was a construct, but more along the lines of an object containing a soul is not always necessarily a construct. Nor was I arguing that a construct is not a spirit residing within an object. More or less, I was saying that just because it's animated and without flesh, does not make it a construct. Until we have something within lore to suggest a soul being involved with such a thing, we should not assume that it has one.

That's about as absurd as assuming the floating rocks are constructs containing souls due to being animated and without flesh.

For what a construct is, one can say it is based on your own use for the word. Its meaning is something that is constructed. My use for construct is using that word as a name for objects powered by a soul being within it that is not an undead.

And you are right, just because it is animated and without a flesh, it is not necessarily a construct. It could be an elemental (something of the elements *water, earth, fire, ice, etc* powered by magic) or a golem *any other object that is powered by magic and not a soul*.

As for "Until we have something within lore to suggest a soul being involved with such a thing, we should not assume that it has one." That was actually what I was saying for the hammer...

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Never said you said it was impossible.

"Bizarre? Yes, but impossible? I don't think so." You did say impossible.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..What? Soul Batteries don't use the soul to power movement, and they aren't like prisons either. They literally sap the soul's energy, which is where they would be similar to the Soul Stones, perhaps, to maintain the seal on the Door of Komalie.

Uhhh... I meant the Soul Stones use the soul to power movement... the Soul Batteries (which are like prisons, as the soul cannot escape unless "freed"), the Soul Batteries, as you said, power the Door of Komalie.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Technicalities are an absolute necessity to prove or disprove a point, as any technicality can easily undermine your ideas. As a matter of fact, you're doing the very same thing, except in this case you're splitting hairs in your favor based on your view of the meaning of power in regards to Gods.

I was just explaining my use of the words. Difference in location can easily cause a difference in use of terms, so it's always good to try to explain one's use of term. Even among those in my areas, my use of terms is... unusual so I end up confusing people twice as often with words.

So it's not so much as splitting hairs, but more of trying to explain what I meant. So while using the term in your use, your right, and while using it in my use, I'm right.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Well, yeah, but like I said earlier, there's a major difference between a mortal being and a deity which can radically change things. Gods and Goddesses in Tyria seem to lack complete omniscience, but they do at least seem to have an overview of the world to some extent. In this case, they may have a higher consciousness, a higher sentience, which allows some influence to remain despite being divided into minuscule parts.

Ok, now you're splitting hairs here. You're trying to explain how you could be right when we have no clue about it. We don't know the status of the Great Dwarf (in terms of "ranking" of deity), we do not know if there would be a difference between a highly powerful mage of a mortal being and a deity splitting their essence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

However, I do have to say that whenever Lazarus was trying to reclaim the aspect, he did have the adverse effect of death, so it does have some degree of influence. Not to mention whenever one tries to alter the aspects, Justiciar Naveed does feel something. But independent influence, indeed it has not.

Killing in order to reclaim an aspect does not mean an influence over the being that the aspect was infused (one could say) into.

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Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Yeah, I know, the dwarven race is finished, yadda yadda. But what if that is only referring to their civilization? How do we know that the dwarves haven't simply become more like the norn, only spread out across the subterrainian parts of the world and rarely meeting to reproduce? It seems strange to me that the Great Dwarf would order his people "Ok, I want the destroyers dead, and you're going to throw away all hope of ever being able to stop them again in the future should you miss some this time by all turning to stone, even though I could just have MOST of you turn to stone and get the same effect, without the risk of leaving you unable to stop them again when you all die and they potentially rise again".

The race is still around, but cannot reproduce. Their civilization was destroyed. The Norn do have a civilization (writing, shared belief, structures, and a social structure is all that is needed).

As for your little Great Dwarf saying, the dwarves were going to be removed no matter what, according to the prophecy. So either have them all wiped out by the Destroyers, or have a few survive the battle with the Great Destroyer and have the last remnants survive as long as they could. Either way, both the race and the civilization would be destroyed.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

This may be worth looking into - I have a vague memory of it actually being stated that the Kurzicks and Luxons believe the artifacts to contain the spirits of their heroes. Doesn't mean they're right, of course, but they would be examples of soul-carrying objects that aren't mobile... but, yet, are possibly more powerful than any of the constructs magically. Maybe there's two 'modes' of posession - one in which the spirit can cause the object to move, and one in which the spirit saves its energies for something else?

(Either way, they both do seem to be powered by the aggression bloodstone, but that fits the theory of that being the magic type associated with the dead...)

The thing is, if those objects do carry the souls, then why must they be dropped to be activated? I think they are the same as the regular ashes, but the only of those two, and therefore much more powerful. That is, the urn and spear call upon the spirit, not hold the spirit. And the power in which the spirit returns is stronger.

The only question is the charging part - but we are sure that can be even lore? I am unsure, personally.

draxynnic · Aug 13, 2009, 02:26 PM // 14:26

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The thing is, if those objects do carry the souls, then why must they be dropped to be activated? I think they are the same as the regular ashes, but the only of those two, and therefore much more powerful. That is, the urn and spear call upon the spirit, not hold the spirit. And the power in which the spirit returns is stronger.

The only question is the charging part - but we are sure that can be even lore? I am unsure, personally.

Well, they certainly seem to be related to Ritualist item spells in behaviour.

Of course, we don't really understand just how Ritualist item spells work - the most likely scenario, in my mind, is that they work by the Ritualise infusing a spirit into the pot - just like the Spear and Urn may contain (part of) the spirits of the heroes in question... but the Spear and Urn don't need a ritualist to be activated.

(Regarding being dropped... that may simply be ANet's way of getting around the engine limitations of not having a way to 'activate' a held item - in lore, activation of the Spear and Urn may not actually involve dropping it onto the ground. The same may be true of regular ashpots, with the item being consumed by the drop-effect being triggered rather than literally dropped.)

Konig Des Todes · Aug 13, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

but the Spear and Urn don't need a ritualist to be activated.

And Saidra's ashes in EN.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Regarding being dropped... that may simply be ANet's way of getting around the engine limitations of not having a way to 'activate' a held item - in lore, activation of the Spear and Urn may not actually involve dropping it onto the ground. The same may be true of regular ashpots, with the item being consumed by the drop-effect being triggered rather than literally dropped.

Hmmm, that is true - except for Saidra's ashes, but then again Saidra's ashes cannot be dropped and picked up repeatedly.

Gmr Leon · Aug 14, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

But it is still showing their existence - to an extent. Where is the proof the Great Dwarf is still around? Stories. No avatar. No "minions." Only followers are the dwarves.

If a King has a messenger bound to his will, stating that he will die should he disobey or go astray of his will, but will live indefinitely otherwise, wouldn't you keep obeying the King's will? The scenario may be similar with the Avatars. The Gods may no longer exist in the sense we are familiar with, i.e. inhabiting a body. Whatever the case, we just don't know. If anything though, given a few centuries, regardless of the little festivities, the humans may become like most of the Deldrimor Dwarves, not really believing in the Great Dwarf, until something comes up related to him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Er, I never said he wasn't a god... I said he was no longer around... I.e., I say he either was part of an older generation (I believe this to be the case), was a seventh god, or he wasn't a god at all. I find the last one unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which would mean that, if the Great Dwarf was a real god, and the hammer is filled with the Great Dwarf's power, that implies there was originally 7 gods.

Not precisely saying it, but it does suggest it, depending on how you read it.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

"Bizarre? Yes, but impossible? I don't think so." You did say impossible.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Never said you said it was impossible.

Key word there.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Ok, now you're splitting hairs here. You're trying to explain how you could be right when we have no clue about it. We don't know the status of the Great Dwarf (in terms of "ranking" of deity), we do not know if there would be a difference between a highly powerful mage of a mortal being and a deity splitting their essence.

Pretty sure it's clear he's a God. Not a demiGod, not a semiGod, just a full-on God. Besides that, I'm not splitting hairs in the same manner as you were, in regards to terminology, instead just doing so in regards to certain aspects that we have some degree of evidence about, which we were both doing. Such as the semi-omniscience of the Gods.

Besides that, I'm not concerned with being right, just with proposing a variety of possibilities that should not be ignored in favor of another idea due to supposed lack of evidence. (And no, this does not mean I'm giving leeway to Arachnia, as every shred of evidence is found in the .dat. And due to the nature of the landmarks associated with it, it is still unclear in comparison to the descriptions regarding several other landmarks, which are blatantly obvious.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Killing in order to reclaim an aspect does not mean an influence over the being that the aspect was infused (one could say) into.

You have it backwards. The reclaiming of the aspect produces the effect of death, thus it does have an influence over the being.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 14, 2009, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

If a King has a messenger bound to his will, stating that he will die should he disobey or go astray of his will, but will live indefinitely otherwise, wouldn't you keep obeying the King's will? The scenario may be similar with the Avatars. The Gods may no longer exist in the sense we are familiar with, i.e. inhabiting a body. Whatever the case, we just don't know. If anything though, given a few centuries, regardless of the little festivities, the humans may become like most of the Deldrimor Dwarves, not really believing in the Great Dwarf, until something comes up related to him.

This may be the case, but one cannot deny that the Old Gods show more of themselves than the Great Dwarf.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not precisely saying it, but it does suggest it, depending on how you read it.

I wasn't saying it, I wasn't implying that, I was keeping open the possibility that the Great Dwarf was not a god.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Key word there.

"Not precisely saying it, but it does suggest it, depending on how you read it."

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Pretty sure it's clear he's a God. Not a demiGod, not a semiGod, just a full-on God. Besides that, I'm not splitting hairs in the same manner as you were, in regards to terminology, instead just doing so in regards to certain aspects that we have some degree of evidence about, which we were both doing. Such as the semi-omniscience of the Gods.

And the only thing we have saying this? Dwarves. They are biased. Do we know they are right? Was the Great Dwarf a god? Or was he a demi-god? Perhaps just the first of the Dwarves who (in a similar idea of Adam and other Abrahamic religious figures or ancient times) lived for thousands of years longer than the average dwarven lifespan. We don't really know.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Besides that, I'm not concerned with being right, just with proposing a variety of possibilities that should not be ignored in favor of another idea due to supposed lack of evidence. (And no, this does not mean I'm giving leeway to Arachnia, as every shred of evidence is found in the .dat. And due to the nature of the landmarks associated with it, it is still unclear in comparison to the descriptions regarding several other landmarks, which are blatantly obvious.)

I'm not concerned with being right either. I just prefer introducing new ideas. Which is why I do my best to keep other ideas out and occasionally pull the "devil's advocate" in debates. (And the Arachnia landmarks are all rather obvious compared to the Realm of Torment landmarks, and not everything on Arachnia is from the .dat, though those not only indirectly links to it)

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

You have it backwards. The reclaiming of the aspect produces the effect of death, thus it does have an influence over the being.

Or it could be killing in order to reclaim it... do we see which would be the case? I don't recall so. I personally think it is killing in order to reclaim it.

But you know, we're going way off topic in most of this, little Leon.

Gmr Leon · Aug 14, 2009, 04:09 AM // 04:09

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This may be the case, but one cannot deny that the Old Gods show more of themselves than the Great Dwarf.

Not precisely themselves, but yes.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I wasn't saying it, I wasn't implying that, I was keeping open the possibility that the Great Dwarf was not a god.

Despite it having no real support other than lack of avatars or intervention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And the only thing we have saying this? Dwarves. They are biased. Do we know they are right? Was the Great Dwarf a god? Or was he a demi-god? Perhaps just the first of the Dwarves who (in a similar idea of Adam and other Abrahamic religious figures or ancient times) lived for thousands of years longer than the average dwarven lifespan. We don't really know.

And the only people we have saying the Gods are Gods are the humans and the Forgotten. Do we know they are right? Are they Gods or merely powerful mortals? Really, I think the Charr have the right idea of them. Nothing to be worshiped, only to be fought and if possible destroyed. Albeit not so much the last portion.

Besides that..How do we even define a demiGod in Tyria? We've never actually encountered such a being. Whatever the case, we don't really know about any of the Gods, and if anything, they're more like demiGods than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

(And the Arachnia landmarks are all rather obvious compared to the Realm of Torment landmarks, and not everything on Arachnia is from the .dat, though those not only indirectly links to it)

You're kidding, right? Atrocity Library, Malafarium, Screaming Spans, City of Ar'Challah, Shattered Guild Hall, Soulweir, Temple of the Six Gods, all of those are far more obvious than the supposed Arachnia ones.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Or it could be killing in order to reclaim it... do we see which would be the case? I don't recall so. I personally think it is killing in order to reclaim it.

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Originally Posted by Justiciar Naveed

Now that someone has dealt with the Titans, Lazarus has begun restoring itself. Reclaiming those aspects...unfortunately...claims the life of the host.

By restoring itself, it seems to suggest to me it literally divided itself up into a state of non-being, and at least after its initial reclamation, that returned its mind and body, it killed the host. Later, it would be the case you suggest.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

But you know, we're going way off topic in most of this, little Leon.

That's the nature of any discussion.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Hmmm, that is true - except for Saidra's ashes, but then again Saidra's ashes cannot be dropped and picked up repeatedly.

Although that reminds me of another example where dropping an item substitutes for using it - the jars of healing salve in Egil's Perch. Now, while they COULD be magic salve that's used by literally smashing the pot on the ground, it's possibly more likely that it's used more actively.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 14, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And the only people we have saying the Gods are Gods are the humans and the Forgotten. Do we know they are right? Are they Gods or merely powerful mortals?

And those in Grenth's and Balthazar's Realms, which includes a Centaur. There is also statues and murals in locations which predate humanity. Naga also show a little sign of worshiping at least Dwayna, and then there are the Harpies - if the legend can be taken as truth. And lets not forget that even the Asura admit there is something more to them than simply "very powerful mortals." Also, the gods do not seem to be subject to age (Abaddon is our support for that), so not really mortals anyways. Much more than what we have for the Great Dwarf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Besides that..How do we even define a demiGod in Tyria? We've never actually encountered such a being. Whatever the case, we don't really know about any of the Gods, and if anything, they're more like demiGods than anything else.

Well now you're comparing the Tyrian Gods to something like the Abrahamic God. If we compare them to any polytheistic religion's gods, they are on par (excluding Japanese gods which are more like very powerful spirits and not really gods). A Demi-God, in terms of most polytheistic religions, would be those who have god-like power, but have some humanistic trait to him/her/it. For instance, Heracles (or Hercules for the roman name) was a demi-god - strongest being there was, and never could lose in mundane things, only by magic did he lose (and die), he also was subject to age. Or lets take a "lesser deity" from Greek Mythology, say, a Dryad - eternal life, but not even close to as powerful as Demeter (and their "realm of power" was the same), their difference in strength (depending on which Dryad) were as far as the Sun and other stars - but they were all (except in some rare cases, I assume) stronger than humans. Another example of a "demi-god."

In other words, a demi-god would be a being stronger than mortals, but not as strong as any of the gods. Or another way to word it, would be a "god" with mortal characteristics which prevent them from being a real god.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

You're kidding, right? Atrocity Library, Malafarium, Screaming Spans, City of Ar'Challah, Shattered Guild Hall, Soulweir, Temple of the Six Gods, all of those are far more obvious than the supposed Arachnia ones.

Shattered Guild Hall, Temple of the Six Gods, and River of Souls are not from the gw.dat, and they are the most obvious. Why? Because they are player found, not from the .dat (two of which are given names in game, however - Shattered Guild Hall isn't even an official name!)... And the Arachnia Plateau, Harvestman's Lair, and Vale of Shadows are very damned obvious, only Arachnia related landmark which isn't sure is the Spider's Heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

By restoring itself, it seems to suggest to me it literally divided itself up into a state of non-being, and at least after its initial reclamation, that returned its mind and body, it killed the host. Later, it would be the case you suggest.

That made no sense to me...

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Although that reminds me of another example where dropping an item substitutes for using it - the jars of healing salve in Egil's Perch. Now, while they COULD be magic salve that's used by literally smashing the pot on the ground, it's possibly more likely that it's used more actively.

I would think, at least those, (not sure for the other containers we can see every here and there, such as in the raptor cave) would be the use of any kind of salve. You take some and rub it on you to heal it.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2009, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Or lets take a "lesser deity" from Greek Mythology, say, a Dryad - eternal life, but not even close to as powerful as Demeter (and their "realm of power" was the same), their difference in strength (depending on which Dryad) were as far as the Sun and other stars - but they were all (except in some rare cases, I assume) stronger than humans. Another example of a "demi-god."

Nitpick! There are plenty of stars that are brighter than the Sun... they just appear less bright because the Sun is a heck of a lot closer. Dryads would be more of the reverse situation - they actually ARE weaker, but when encountered they're also a lot closer.

A better analogy might be comparing the Sun to the Moon or one of the planets - even the 'reflected light' analogy might hold up when you consider that many of these spirits were servants of the god that controlled their domain.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 14, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Nitpick! There are plenty of stars that are brighter than the Sun... they just appear less bright because the Sun is a heck of a lot closer. Dryads would be more of the reverse situation - they actually ARE weaker, but when encountered they're also a lot closer.

A better analogy might be comparing the Sun to the Moon or one of the planets - even the 'reflected light' analogy might hold up when you consider that many of these spirits were servants of the god that controlled their domain.

Uhh... I mean the distance between the sun and other stars, not the difference in size/brightness.... And as for Dryads being weaker than humans, in physical strength yes, but overall they are still closer to gods than humans.

Gmr Leon · Aug 14, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And those in Grenth's and Balthazar's Realms, which includes a Centaur. There is also statues and murals in locations which predate humanity. Naga also show a little sign of worshiping at least Dwayna, and then there are the Harpies - if the legend can be taken as truth. And lets not forget that even the Asura admit there is something more to them than simply "very powerful mortals." Also, the gods do not seem to be subject to age (Abaddon is our support for that), so not really mortals anyways. Much more than what we have for the Great Dwarf.

The Asura admit there is something more after their research by nearly saying that the Gods are nothing more than the forces of nature, as I took it.

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Originally Posted by Kerrsh

From that look on your face, I suppose you want to know more. How can I put this so that you will understand.... Gods are part of this world. Think of these "facets" as one of any number of possible manifestations of those gods.

They exist, and yet do not exist, in a way.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Well now you're comparing the Tyrian Gods to something like the Abrahamic God. If we compare them to any polytheistic religion's gods, they are on par.

On par in the sense that they're just showoffs waiting to be usurped by a clever heretic.

The irony of the Greek pantheon is that Zeus, while considered a God, could also have been deemed a heretic, as he defied his father, Kronos, who also would have been a heretic to his father before him. If all of the pantheon were worshiped at one time, then at some point the head Gods were heretics at some point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

In other words, a demi-god would be a being stronger than mortals, but not as strong as any of the gods. Or another way to word it, would be a "god" with mortal characteristics which prevent them from being a real god.

Either way, at least the Gods aren't all related, else we probably would have a mess of demigods. (The capital g there was just bugging me.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Shattered Guild Hall, Temple of the Six Gods, and River of Souls are not from the gw.dat, and they are the most obvious. Why? Because they are player found, not from the .dat (two of which are given names in game, however - Shattered Guild Hall isn't even an official name!)... And the Arachnia Plateau, Harvestman's Lair, and Vale of Shadows are very damned obvious, only Arachnia related landmark which isn't sure is the Spider's Heart.

I am quite certain the Shattered Guild Hall may be a real name, as I am also rather certain it was extracted from the .dat. Also, Arachnia Plateau isn't obvious, the ground one walks on looks no different from any other ground in the Realm of Torment, if I am not mistaken. The only real suggestion of it being a spider's underbelly are the Torment Claws along the sides, appearing similar to spider legs. Harvestman's Lair is the only very obvious one, that is true. Vale of Shadows is not obvious, nor is the area it is speculated to be accurate, as the description says a wide, broad plain. It is far from being wide, despite having shadows that come close to the description.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That made no sense to me...

Think of the first human host as a hard drive, alright? You dissipate yourself and download your body characteristics, memory, and personality into the host. Whenever you wish to come back, finding the situation safe, or favorable for reclaiming the other parts of yourself, you upload yourself back into the world, formatting the hard drive, or host, in the process. If it isn't obvious, that's a nicer way of saying killing the host.

Once that is done, you find your other hard drives, and download the information you stored in them back to yourself, formatting them in the process. That's how I see it, perhaps that will help your understanding of what I am attempting to say.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 15, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

On par in the sense that they're just showoffs waiting to be usurped by a clever heretic.

The irony of the Greek pantheon is that Zeus, while considered a God, could also have been deemed a heretic, as he defied his father, Kronos, who also would have been a heretic to his father before him. If all of the pantheon were worshiped at one time, then at some point the head Gods were heretics at some point.

If one considers Zeus a heretic, then one would consider most polytheistic gods heretics. There are many ancient faiths (Greek and Norse are easiest to say, even the GW gods fit this) either have wars between gods, or have a god killing a god. Zeus and his brothers and sisters vs Kronos and the Titans is just one generation of gods replacing an older generation of gods (which is very possibly similar to the Tyrian gods except the Greek gods were all at once).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Either way, at least the Gods aren't all related, else we probably would have a mess of demigods. (The capital g there was just bugging me.)

Technically, even "Gods" shouldn't have a capital g. "God" is only capital because it's regarded as the name of the Abrahamic god.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I am quite certain the Shattered Guild Hall may be a real name, as I am also rather certain it was extracted from the .dat. Also, Arachnia Plateau isn't obvious, the ground one walks on looks no different from any other ground in the Realm of Torment, if I am not mistaken. The only real suggestion of it being a spider's underbelly are the Torment Claws along the sides, appearing similar to spider legs. Harvestman's Lair is the only very obvious one, that is true. Vale of Shadows is not obvious, nor is the area it is speculated to be accurate, as the description says a wide, broad plain. It is far from being wide, despite having shadows that come close to the description.

Shattered Guild Hall is a player made name (you even took place in the discussion for the name and what it was!). And it wasn't from the gw.dat. And I wouldn't call those large Torment Claws either, they are much different from the Torment Claws if you really look at them. And the land makes the shape of a spider's underbelly as well - though yes, the ground does look like ground (except when you walk on the two spider legs). As for the Vale of Shadows, it rather is wide and/or broad if you go there, a plain would be questionable, though. And the rest of the discussion fits more than perfectly.

draxynnic · Aug 15, 2009, 05:01 AM // 05:01

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Uhh... I mean the distance between the sun and other stars, not the difference in size/brightness.... And as for Dryads being weaker than humans, in physical strength yes, but overall they are still closer to gods than humans.

I meant weaker to be relative to the gods, not humans.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 15, 2009, 01:07 PM // 13:07

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

I meant weaker to be relative to the gods, not humans.

Then how would that be the reverse situation as that is what I said...

draxynnic · Aug 15, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Because stars aren't actually weaker than the Sun (many of those that are visible to the naked eye are bigger and hotter, although there are many more that aren't), they just appear to be so because they're further away.

Between semi-divine entities in Greek mythology such as nymphs and monsters versus the actual Gods, however, the nymph or monster, to the average mortal that encounters them, is powerful enough. A god may be more powerful, but to the mortal that's face-to-face with the Chimera, the Chimera is certainly dangerous enough. So, in the star/sun analogy, it's the semidivine entity (the nymph or monster) that the mortal encounters that takes the role of the Sun, while one of the gods would be like Rigel - more powerful, but much further away and thus less important to the mortal's viewpoint.

I did say it was a nitpick.

For cases where the god is still more immediately powerful despite the distance, you could use the Sun as the deity and the moon or inner planets as the semidivine entity (or entities), but it falls down when you bring the stars into it.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 15, 2009, 03:35 PM // 15:35

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Because stars aren't actually weaker than the Sun (many of those that are visible to the naked eye are bigger and hotter, although there are many more that aren't), they just appear to be so because they're further away.

Between semi-divine entities in Greek mythology such as nymphs and monsters versus the actual Gods, however, the nymph or monster, to the average mortal that encounters them, is powerful enough. A god may be more powerful, but to the mortal that's face-to-face with the Chimera, the Chimera is certainly dangerous enough. So, in the star/sun analogy, it's the semidivine entity (the nymph or monster) that the mortal encounters that takes the role of the Sun, while one of the gods would be like Rigel - more powerful, but much further away and thus less important to the mortal's viewpoint.

I did say it was a nitpick.

For cases where the god is still more immediately powerful despite the distance, you could use the Sun as the deity and the moon or inner planets as the semidivine entity (or entities), but it falls down when you bring the stars into it.

Let me put it like this: The difference between power of demi-god and god is the same as the distance between the sun and other stars. You clearly never understood my analogy.

I never meant the brightness of the stars. I meant the huge distance (when comparing say, planets to each other) is like the huge difference between gods and demi-gods.

Let me use another analogy: The difference between in power of the gods and demi-gods are like the difference in firepower between a pistol and a tank. That work?

draxynnic · Aug 15, 2009, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Works as an analogy (once you get past the nitpick that the tank itself isn't a firearm, and that a pistol may well be more dangerous than an unarmed tank).

In that form of the analogy, though, I can't say I agree. I tend to think of things as being more of a continuum than an order-of-magnitude increase between "god" and "something less than a god".